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Lord
Federman
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(6/10/01 12:56:51
am)
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Can PS2 Handle
Sonic Adventure 2?
Can PS2 Handle Sonic Adventure 2? Or even the original for that
matter. I know it'd easily be able to push three times as many
polygons and I'm not questioning the quality of the game(s), but can
the PS2 currently push the rich and luscious textures featured in
Sega's premiere mascot franchise.
In terms of platformers,
Rayman 2 is the top of the heap for the PS2 and it's not really
superior to the Dreamcast counterpart. So I was playing through
Sonic Adventure and the demo for SA2, pondering if either were
capable of being ported to the PS2 with textures intact.
|
Ned
Flanders God of Men
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Posts: 233
(6/10/01 12:59:34
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Texture-wise, I'd have to say no, at least based on the current and
soon to come crop of PS2 titles. Although it may be near possible
later on in its lifespan...
Slept-On Classics: Outlander- SNES Silk Worm- NES Star Control 2-
3DO Aliens vs Predator- Jaguar Mutant League Football-
Genesis |
Marty
Chinn
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Posts: 44
(6/10/01 1:00:51
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
What's wrong with the textures in Devil May Cry?
|
ZEBMAR
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Posts: 227
(6/10/01 1:01:37 am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Judging by the textures in SA and SA2.....no..........The framerate
shouldn't be much of a problem, but the textures are way too rich
and high resolution for an accurate port. I want to see who denies
it and yes, I like the PS2. I am just speaking the cold hard truth.
Do not complain about what you allow. You can't handle the truth
because the truth hurts. There are 2 people in the world I will
never trust.......the devil and car salesmen. |
Buggy
Loop
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(6/10/01 1:05:59
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
erhm, the overdraw in sonic 2 would probably bring ps2 on its knees.
Well thats what i've heard..
|
Sman
Xtreme
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Posts: 86
(6/10/01 1:06:38
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Well, probably the original. The only it has going for it are the
textures and since the levels are pretty straightforward, the PSX2
could stream those from the CD as needed.
Not sure about the
sequel. I don't believe you could have an 100% perfect conversion,
but you could have something like 95% perfect and make up for the
things missing with the strenght of the PSX2. You know, people talk
about lighting and poly power, but what I think makes a real
difference with the PSX2 are the particle effects. Whenever I play
SSX, I always tell myself DC could handle this until I see the
fireworks effects, if it were on DC, I know from experience it would
slow down horribly there.
Of course, let's not get into
games like MGS2 were the particle effects are KEY to the whole
atmosphere.
Just my two cents.
|
Taito
de GO
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Posts: 55
(6/10/01 1:08:18
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Since when has the PS2 automatically become texture-deficient? Does
anyone have any specific examples of bland texturing on PS2, or are
you guys simply talking out of your ass?
As for SA2, I can't
think of any reason why the PS2 couldn't handle such a game. Crazy
Taxi has proven that DC games can be done on the PS2 (albeit with
some loss in quality, but I blame that on the fact that the port
wasn't developed by the original company, and PS2 & DC hardware
don't have a lot in common).
Edited by: Taito
de GO at: 6/10/01 1:10:48 am
|
BeOnEdge
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Posts: 136
(6/10/01 1:09:25 am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
NOPE....CANT DO THE TEXTURES.
|
Frinkle
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Posts: 81
(6/10/01 1:12:17 am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
SA2: Look at the walls, they look incredible
DMC:
Look at the walls on this shot, sort of bland and grainy
|
Ned
Flanders God of Men
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Posts: 235
(6/10/01 1:13:06
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Tatio, I never said that the PS2 was texture deficient. I did say
that it could'nt handle the textures in SA2, because the resolution
and color depth are unmatched on ANY console currently. Even the
newer PS2 titles coming this fall would be hard pressed to equal the
detail and crispness of SA2's textures, and most of those games have
good textures anyway..
Slept-On Classics: Outlander- SNES Silk Worm- NES Star Control 2-
3DO Aliens vs Predator- Jaguar Mutant League Football-
Genesis |
YPO
Registered User
Posts: 45
(6/10/01 1:14:24 am)
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|
.
I love how people here choose screenshots when comparing things.
It's just so smart!
|
Frinkle
Registered User
Posts: 82
(6/10/01 1:16:46 am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Yeah, I was gonna use my copies of DMC and SA2 to compare them and
then write some impressions. But I lent both games to my friend.
|
Taito
de GO
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Posts: 58
(6/10/01 1:17:40
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
But you don't have any proof or precedence for making such an
uneducated statement... OK...
I'm not really attacking you,
I just want you to think about what you're saying...
Edited by: Taito
de GO at: 6/10/01 1:27:19 am
|
Marty
Chinn
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Posts: 45
(6/10/01 1:19:00
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
You guys do remember that the DC only has 8 megabytes of VRAM per
area, and that the PS2's 4 megabytes is used per frame right?
|
YPO
Registered User
Posts: 46
(6/10/01 1:20:24 am)
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.
Heh, that's one of the worst DMC pics I've ever seen, surely you can
do better than that? I don't think it's THAT difficult.
|
Ned
Flanders God of Men
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Posts: 236
(6/10/01 1:21:47
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Are you talking to me Taito?? Do you know anything about the PS2's
texture abilities?? You'd have to work 3 times as hard on the PS2 to
get anywhere near some of the better texturework found on DC, just
due to the nature of the hardware. Thats not a knock against PS2,
its just a statement of fact. Thats not to say that the PS2 can't
have solid texutrework, cause it can, but it has yet to reach a
DC-ish level of quality yet, mostly due to the fact that devs are
still coming to grips with streaming methods and fighting aliasing
at the same time, all while working to get higher poly counts (and
thus needing more textures).
DMC probably doubles (or more)
SA2's poly count, but its textures can't compete..
Slept-On Classics: Outlander- SNES Silk Worm- NES Star Control 2-
3DO Aliens vs Predator- Jaguar Mutant League Football-
Genesis |
Frinkle
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Posts: 83
(6/10/01 1:22:34 am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Those are the first two I'm came across with shots of walls. I've
been looking through some more from the same batch at IGN and there
are some others that look a little better, but overall the texturing
doesn't look that great in DMC.
|
Edge
Master Deluxe
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Posts: 255
(6/10/01 1:24:13
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Quote:
You guys do remember that the DC only has 8 megabytes of VRAM per
area, and that the PS2's 4 megabytes is used per frame right?
Exactly, DC can do twice
as many textures per frame.
|
Marty
Chinn
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Posts: 46
(6/10/01 1:25:10
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Eh? Nice "fact"......
|
Taito
de GO
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Posts: 60
(6/10/01 1:26:12
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
What I think is, SA2 proves that the DC was no slouch in
performance, now that it's been almost universally accepted that DC
was an almost generationally (is that a word?) inferior sytem
compared to the other 128-bit consoles...
but, from what I've
seen of the PS2 library thus far, I'm convinced SA2 can appear on
the PS2 90% identical to the DC rev.
Edited by: Taito
de GO at: 6/10/01 1:28:07 am
|
senton
atomico
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Posts: 45
(6/10/01 1:26:59
am)
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....
this is nuts
|
Ned
Flanders God of Men
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Posts: 237
(6/10/01 1:29:20
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
"90% identical" <<EXACTLY
But it could not do the
textures to full effect, at least not yet. If "90%" is "handling"
SA2 then I guess that most DC games could be on PS2. But I think
what was meant was that if you built SA2 from the ground up on PS2
could it look exactly as good or better. And my reply was
"texture-wise, no", and I still stand by that statement..
Slept-On Classics: Outlander- SNES Silk Worm- NES Star Control 2-
3DO Aliens vs Predator- Jaguar Mutant League Football-
Genesis |
Axelye1
Registered User
Posts: 160
(6/10/01 1:31:35 am)
Reply
 |
Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Polygon wise, yes. In terms of overall texture quality no. Blurry,
repetitve textures is something that's going to plague the PS2
throughout its lifespan, just like N64. Get used to it!
|
Frinkle
Registered User
Posts: 84
(6/10/01 1:34:44 am)
Reply
|
Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
is
that green bar at the top part of the game, or a graphic added on?
|
Marty
Chinn
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Posts: 47
(6/10/01 1:36:42
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Edge: Clearly you just proved you have no idea of the technical
capabilities of the systems then. An area means say everything in
the room at a given time, whether it is on screen or not has to be
in memory. Per frame means what is visible at the given moment only
needs to be in memory. That's the difference between the DC where it
contains all the textures in the room, vs the PS2 which streams in
the visible frame. World of difference. The GC does the same thing
and only has THREE megabytes of texture.
Ned: There is no
technical reason why the PS2 wouldn't be capable of handling it
perfectly if it was built from the ground up or ported over with
considerable overhaul. Will it happen? Probably not. If it was
ported, would it be perfect perfectly? No. But then again remember
how Sega fans were saying VF3 was just a poor port and that the DC
was always technically capable of a perfect port if done right....
|
ValPiro
CPA
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Posts: 229
(6/10/01 1:37:17
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
" Heh, that's one of the worst DMC pics I've ever seen, surely you
can do better than that? I don't think it's THAT difficult.
"
For what its worth, the SA2 pic isn't that hot either. The
game looks infinitely more clear and crisp on my VGA
monitor.
Marty, specs aren't as important as what
shows up on screen.
Just yesterday Raistlin was trying to
explain what aspects of the PS2 were better than the NGC; of course
it all meant nothing because in the end all technical aspects will
turn out better on the NGC than they will on the PS2. Whether or not
the PS2 can do more textures per 'x' than the NGC, or more polygons
per 'y' than the NGC, both textures and polys will look better on
the NGC. Why? Because the games show the results, not the specs.
|
Sutaz
Registered User
Posts: 5
(6/10/01 1:40:31 am)
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|
.
Would rather see Sonic on Gamecube as he would look better and the
controller lay-out would be great for speedy moves.
|
Marty
Chinn
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Posts: 48
(6/10/01 1:41:02
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Val: Having played Devil May Cry, it looks a lot better too, and I
think it shows that the PS2 is more than capable of high quality
textures. And we're back at square one. But hey you like to write
things off immediately, then the DC could have never of rised passed
VF3. A lot of games IMO showed great texture quality at E3 on the
PS2. It's the difference of first generation games using textures in
memory vs streaming textures which is how the system was designed
for. The same way the GameCube is. This is an age old argument and
I'm surprised that it still goes on today. There is nothing about
the PS2 that makes it inferior to the DC in textures if you stream
textures the way the PS2 was designed for, again like the GameCube.
Why is it the GameCube is let off the hook but not the PS2 when the
basic design of the architecture for textures is the same principle?
You store what you need for the given frame in graphic memory and
all your textures in main memory.
|
Ned
Flanders God of Men
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Posts: 238
(6/10/01 1:42:43
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Marty, I respect your opinion and all, but the PS2 hasn't even
proven with its new crop of AAA's (MGS2, DMC, etc..) that it can do
texturework as good as SA2. The PS2 has the advantage in that it can
use poly's for a lot of what the DC uses textures for (clothing etc)
but in instances like walls and surfaces the resolution and color
depth of SA2 beats the PS2's best by a long shot. Does that mean it
can never be done 100% on PS2?? I never say never, but nothing
currently has indicated as such, and nothing about the hardware
indicates that doing so would be anything less than miraculous. I
own a PS2 and I've seen some of the better looking games (Bouncer,
ZOE), and they cannot match the textures I have seen in my SA2
demo.
Slept-On Classics: Outlander- SNES Silk Worm- NES Star Control 2-
3DO Aliens vs Predator- Jaguar Mutant League Football-
Genesis |
Sman
Xtreme
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Posts: 90
(6/10/01 1:43:15
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
I don't think it is possible to come up with darker and more cramped
pics.
Still amazed this issue comes up once in a while (SA2
or any other DC game hypothetically on PSX2 hardware) and balloons
into a hot topic. Only in the GA forums.
|
Taito
de GO
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Posts: 61
(6/10/01 1:43:49
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Ned: Well, I say it could appear on PS2 in a better condition than
the DC game if Sonic Team wanted it to, but it would be impossible
to make an identical port of SA2, not because of the texturing, but
because the hardware is different.
And you can talk spec
sheets and things you've heard on the internet all that you wish,
but as far as demonstrable performance on the PS2, I haven't seen
any example of poor texturing yet (Oh, there's definitely a 'jaggy'
problem, but that's all). As for SA2, you have no idea for a fact if
the texture work in the game is beyond the means of the PS2. I
seriously doubt you are that skilled a game programmer (and I doubt
you are a game programmer) that you can analyze the texture data and
memeory size in a video game, by glancing upon a screenshot or on
TV.
That's why I'm dismissing your statement as
'uneducated'.
Edited by: Taito
de GO at: 6/10/01 1:44:59 am
|
Frinkle
Registered User
Posts: 85
(6/10/01 1:46:08 am)
Reply
|
Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
How are those shots dark and cramped? The DMC one has a bright light
lighting the whole shot, and the SA2 one is in a darkish room, it's
not like its a bad capture.
|
Nash
Registered User
Posts: 8
(6/10/01 1:46:21 am)
Reply
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
It's not just down to VRAM! The DC can access compressed textures
from it's anywhere in it's normal RAM. Add ontop of that hidden
surface removal and filtering the display down from a higher
resolution, and you have alot of strengths which are not present in
the PS2.
Streaming textures is always going to be
problematic in games with varied scenery and long draw distance - of
which Sonic is a good example. In theory it's just about possible
but it's just so much hassle.
SA2 is a technically stunning
game, and takes advantage of what the DC does best. It's sad to see
people still have to get on the DC's case even when it is
technically 'dead'. It had the nicest and most efficient hardware
design of any console since the PSX, and the last games on the
system will be evidence of this.
PS2 has it's strengths but
it was a muddled and confused design. Of course people will get
round that and produce good results in time, but that still doesn't
make it ideal hardware to produce games on. The only reason people
are even bothering is because of the strength of the brand. If it
had anyone else's name on it, it would have been dead in the
water.
Nash
|
Ned
Flanders God of Men
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Posts: 239
(6/10/01 1:46:49
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Tatio I've never once mentioned "poor" texturing on the PS2, but I
have mentioned that it has not matched the texture quality of games
like SA2.
Slept-On Classics: Outlander- SNES Silk Worm- NES Star Control 2-
3DO Aliens vs Predator- Jaguar Mutant League Football-
Genesis |
YPO
Registered User
Posts: 47
(6/10/01 1:47:10 am)
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.
And I suppose DMC doesn't look better on a TV.
|
Buggy
Loop
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Posts: 233
(6/10/01 1:48:11
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
"It had the nicest and most efficient hardware design of any
console"
Hmm, you could say that against ps2 and to a certain
point even xbox, but certainly not gamecube, not by a long shot.
|
lambchop
SS
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Posts: 79
(6/10/01 1:48:41
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
well doesn't jak & daxter answer this question?
those
that have seen both 1st hand spill!!
|
Sman
Xtreme
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Posts: 91
(6/10/01 1:49:47
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
BTW, Marty, maybe you haven't paid too much attention to this year's
E3, but one common complaint/argument about NGC games WERE the
textures...
|
Buggy
Loop
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Posts: 234
(6/10/01 1:52:41
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
"argument about NGC games WERE the textures..."
on early
built games like star fox or kameo....
anyone that complain
about textures in ED or LM is just brain dead. Wave race is too hard
to judge since the massive transparencies, and rogue leader is set
in the star wars universe, which isnt very the most colorfull
universe you can get. But the textures in cloud city and the death
star were perfect, they even had a nice touch of motion perspective
to give it a more "cinematic" feeling while in motion.
|
ThompsonX
Registered User
Posts: 21
(6/10/01 1:52:56 am)
Reply
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
There really is no reason PS2 can't do SA2. In my eye both machines
are currently capable have having their games ported in etheir
direction, minus a few effects.
Actually this is a bit
pointless, it'll most likely turn up on PS2 anyway so we shall all
see.
Thompson
|
Axelye1
Registered User
Posts: 161
(6/10/01 1:58:57 am)
Reply
|
Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Marty, both GC and PS2 stream textures, yes. However, since thery're
both completly different architectures, performance is much
different.
|
iLINK2
Registered User
Posts: 51
(6/10/01 2:01:52 am)
Reply
|
Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Of course PS2 can handle SA2. FFX and Ico already look considerably
more detailed then SA2 regarding textures.
The answer is
yes, of course.
|
Nash
Registered User
Posts: 9
(6/10/01 2:03:00 am)
Reply
|
Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
"Hmm, you could say that against ps2 and to a certain point even
xbox, but certainly not gamecube, not by a long shot."
Well
Gamecube isn't out yet, and had not had the opportunity to play with
any dev kits yet either, so I can't comment about how it stacks up
to the DC. But from a development point of view DC was just about
perfect.
I really hope GC turns out good, as the games
industry desperately needs a well designed, dedicated games console.
You don't encourage originality by making people fight the hardware,
you just waste time. And there are too few original games these days
by far.
Nash
|
Homo
Pocket
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Posts: 147
(6/10/01 2:15:24
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Quote:
Of course PS2 can handle SA2. FFX and Ico already look
considerably more detailed then SA2 regarding textures.
Ya know, I ALMOST made
it out of this thread without replying . I was
just about done until I read the above which I kind of disagree
with.. FFX looked pretty nice, but was kind of a disappointment to
me considering the theoretical power of the PS2 and Squaresoft's
graphical prowess. Some of the characters in FFX were somewhat
blocky in certain areas and alot of the textures weren't very
detailed from what was shown at E3.
|
iLINK2
Registered User
Posts: 52
(6/10/01 2:20:49 am)
Reply
|
Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Yep, theres some blockiness in SA2 too so guess it evens out. FFX
stil has crisper and a better varitey of textures imo. Ico might not
have quite the variety though, but better lighting. SA2 does look
amazing, but the PS2 can handle it imo. Need talented coders of
course
Heres an Ico vid for refrence.
ps2media.ign.com/media/pr...co/ico.mov
Edited by: iLINK2
at: 6/10/01 2:23:22 am
|
Nash
Registered User
Posts: 10
(6/10/01 2:29:45 am)
Reply
|
Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
And with due respect Marty, your knowledge of the technical side of
consoles seems more to do with repeating company press-releases than
anything.
Streaming is NASTY and a technical headache. A
comfortable amount of memory with texture compression is far more
preferable. With streaming, unless you limit viewpoints, player
control, and draw distances, you are forever having to worry about
what exactly the player can see and what textures you need to have
available. And where do you stream them in from anyway? The PS2 is
limited on memory (which is why you are streaming in the first
place), and you'd kill the dvd drive if you are constantly flying
backwards and forwards loading individual textures. In most cases
the dvd drive will be being used for the soundtrack anyway.
Streaming is just a compromise for lack of memory, but it helps if
you have enough memory in the first place to get by. PS2 does
not.
A game like Sonic, with long draw distance and vary
varied texture-heavy levels, that change style suddenly, would
probably not turn out as good on PS2. It doesn't play to the PS2's
strengths which is polygon pushing and physics.
Which is
probably why Sonic Team have gone to Gamecube wouldn't you
think?
Nash
|
nrXic
Registered User
Posts: 198
(6/10/01 2:31:13 am)
Reply
|
...
iLink, have you played SA2? The demo of it kicks the pants off of
ICO and DMC, in terms of textures.
Anyways, the 2 consoles
are different beasts, I don't expect the PS2 to handle a port of
SA2. I do think though, that if Sonic Team where to make a Sonic on
the PS2, they could make something that looks better, simply be
using the PS2's strengths (more polys).
|
iLINK2
Registered User
Posts: 53
(6/10/01 2:35:19 am)
Reply
|
Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
hehe, the DVD drive will hold up just fine Nash  Texture
thrashing is a bitch but it has its advantages if executed properly.
J&D has major, major draw distances and not only are the polys
very high, hands on reports say the texture are very impressive as
well. Animation plays a major role as well.
http://www.gaming-age.com/cgi-bin/event/news.pl?y=2001&event=e3&nid=18-70.db
"We
nearly forgot to post screens of one of the best looking games at
the E3, Jak and Dexter for the PlayStation 2. Naughty Dog, creators
of the Crash Bandicoot series, have finally unveiled their PS2
project, and they weren't kidding when they exclaimed how good it
was coming along. Excellent textures and polygon usage combined with
some great lighting effects, give the game a close to CG look. The
animation, although impossible to determine from a screenshot, is
amazingly smooth and detailed as well."
Edited by: iLINK2
at: 6/10/01 2:39:40 am
|
iLINK2
Registered User
Posts: 54
(6/10/01 2:38:50 am)
Reply
|
Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Quote:
iLink, have you played SA2? The demo of it kicks the pants off of
ICO and DMC, in terms of textures.
Yep actually, did, very
nice. But PS2 can do this. This is 3rd Gen DC software. PS2 is
barely on its Second Gen. PS2 can handle SA2, but a port would be
sloppy. It would have to be from the ground up.
|
Ned
Flanders God of Men
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Posts: 240
(6/10/01 2:42:32
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
This pic
was labeled "nice textures" so I figured it would be
appropriate..
Now,
all of the pics are a little blurry (the caps aren't the best), but
the clarity of SA2 is apparent. For instance, look at the bricks on
the steps or the posters on the wall and compare them to the bricks
on ICO or the wood on FFX. Not worlds sharper, but sharper
nonetheless (we are talking degrees if we're talking about perfect
ports). Wish I could have found some hi rez scans of all of them,
because it's not as convincing here as it is in-game. But from these
pics you can at least discern that ICO and FFX are no better
texture-wise (keep in mind that a lot of the detail in FFX is polys
not textures) than SA2.
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nrXic
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(6/10/01 2:43:49 am)
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...
Well I'll respectfully disagree, I'll have to wait till I get my
hands on ICO and FFX to really compare the 2. But you know what,
I'll prolly won't care to compare, I'll just want to play the games.
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Taito
de GO
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
All 3 pics look good to me, texture-wise.
Edited by: Taito
de GO at: 6/10/01 2:50:28 am
|
Axelye1
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Posts: 163
(6/10/01 2:49:56 am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Eh, FFX looks blurry IMO but, the textures seem to be varied. SA2
just looks amazing, everything is extremly crisp and bright. PS2
games always look dark and muddy to me, anyone else feel the same
way?
|
Nash
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(6/10/01 2:50:34 am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
I didn't get to E3 this year, but from what I heard J&D is a
more restricted 3D game along the lines of Crash? In which case they
can have much tighter control over what the player can see, and
therefore what textures will be needed and when.
My main
point is that your average 3D game is going to keep a chunk of
various textures in memory at any point. This chunk will be enough
for whatever area you are in, and what you can see in that area. Any
machine, whether it is DC, GC, or PS2 can load in a new chunk as you
move somewhere else, providing you disguise it well enough. Shenmue2
will be doing it for instance. Where PS2 struggles is that it
doesn't have much room for it's chunk (and therefore variety) of
textures. In 3D games with alot of freedom that is a
problem.
This myth that the PS2 will magically stream
limitless textures in off DVD, as the screen is being drawn, is not
a real world situation in your average 3D game.
Nash
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iLINK2
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Posts: 55
(6/10/01 2:51:51 am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Its always difficult to decide from sloppy pics and videos. Point
is, if FFX and Ico do not surpass SA2, at the very least they match
it imo. But it would take the more talented coders to accomplish
this on PS2. Xbo and GC on the other hand would be rather
"simple".
Nash,
"I didn't get to E3 this year, but
from what I heard J&D is a more restricted 3D game along the
lines of Crash? "
Actually, its quite the oppisite. This is a
complete free roamer. Anywhere anytime. In fact, some sites
complained cause they kept getting lost But I'm
no techy or anything, but from what I studied, complexity is what is
holding PS 2 back rather then what youre implying. Maybe Faf would
shed a spec of light on this but I doubt he will
Edited by: iLINK2
at: 6/10/01 2:56:14 am
|
Ned
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Of course they look good. TAITO I NEVER SAID THAT THE PS2 HAD SUCKY
TEXTURES. I am trying to get you to compare the quality of the SA2
textures to the other titles mentioned. People were claiming that
ICO and FFX had better textures than SA2. From these pics you can
tell that they are at least equivalent, most likely with SA2
having an edge (again the low quality of the caps keep it from being
difinitive). I've seen FFX and SA2 both in person, and while both
look great, nothing I've seen on any home console is coming close to
SA2's textures (maybe WSB2K2..).
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Marty
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Nash: The DC can't. At least not on the fly. The bus is simply too
slow to do it. Plus if I was just spouting stuff off a press
release, I'd be hyping some unrealistic 75 million polygon figure.
No I'm not spouting off stuff from press releases. Heck you just
showed that you don't even have a clue to what I mean about texture
streaming let alone how the GC and PS2 are designed. I'm not talking
about streaming textures off the DVD. I'm talking about... bleh, let
me back up here....
Dreamcast has 16 megabytes of Main RAM,
and 8 megabytes of VRAM. All your textures are stored in VRAM that
you plan to use in the room or area. Why because it needs access to
those textures as you move around the room. Thus your limit is 8
megabytes in any given area. Now with the GC and PS2, they store
their textures in Main RAM and then stream the textures needed for
the frame, ie everytime it draws a frame on screen, ie once every 30
seconds or once every 60 seconds depending on your framerate, and
continues to do so. Thus you need only what is on screen, not what
is in the entire room. This is texture streaming on the PS2 and GC.
It has nothing to do about streaming textures from the DVD. This is
why the PS2 and GC excel in 2D games over the DC. Because you can
store all your frames of animation in Main RAM, which you can devote
way more memory to than you can with 8 megabytes on the DC. All you
do is stream the frame of animation from Main RAM every frame you
draw. Press release my ass, more like understanding what I'm talking
about....
Sman: There were a few games that didn't have great
textures, but then again there were a few games that did. Rogue
Squadron, and Eternal Darkness are perfect examples. Even Smash Bros
had some really nice texturing in it.
Axelay: Of course
there is a performance between the two, different bus size, GC
having texture compression on the graphics chip, etc, but that isn't
the issue. The issue was simply based on how the basic architecture
is designed to handle textures. Neither system was designed to hold
all of its textures in VRAM like the DC. You go in trying to work
with that principle, and you're going to have poor texture quality.
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Taito
de GO
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
OK, Ned, I do agree that SA2 textures look better than FF and
Ico's.
The only (GLARING, but still, the only) problem I have
with the PS2's image is the 'jagg' problem. It was a problem in the
PS2's 1st gen and it's still a problem to this day. That's one
discrepancy on the PS2 where the DC has a clear advantage.
Edited by: Taito
de GO at: 6/10/01 2:55:34 am
|
Sman
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
I see the problem of PSX2 graphics as boosted PSOne visuals. For all
their technical achievements, when I see titles like ZOE and Gun
Griffon, I'm amazed they have the same drab color patterns of the
PSOne.
Fortunately, it is not always the case. SSX is very
colorful and it has the same kind of clear and crisp image quality
SA2 is known for. If only the PSX2 had the VGA option for those few
games...
|
MrAngryFace
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Posts: 509
(6/10/01 2:57:46 am)
Reply
 |
Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
I bet SA2 will be fun to play
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Calder
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Heh, if nothing else those pics proved to me, beyond a shadow of a
doubt, that I'd rather play ICO or FFX than a hundred SA2's.
Some ppl like the bright, sharp, highly contrasted colours.
I am not one of them. And still, some ppl mistake artistic style
choices for technical ability. Just because FFX isn't as bright
and/or texturarly 'sharp' as SA2 doesn't automatically mean that the
limitations of the PS2 are the reason why. And if you want bright,
garish colours on PS2, don't bother looking at ICO for examples.
Maybe Klonoa 2? Hell, wait until Parappa2 and you'll get day-glo
environments galore.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Ned
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Thank you Taito. I think that the texture situation will only get
better on PS2 (obviously if it gets worse then somethings wrong),
possibly even to a level where the textures rival or eqaul that of
SA2. I love my PS2 and don't find most games I've played to have
noticably bad textures (its not even an issue to me), but at the
same time I can't say that they rival or surpass SA2 or even titles
like PSO. And I couldn't honestly sit here and have someone tell me
that the PS2 could do those textures without disagreeing. Does it
matter that it can't? Not really. Does that mean that we should
assume it can? Absolutely not..
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Taito
de GO
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
See, Angryface that's where you're wrong because there isn't a game
I'm looking forward to more than SA2. MY beef isn't over what games
I'm interested in; it's about destroying sterotypes and preconceived
notions about the DC, and PS2.
Ned: I don't completely agree
with you. I just said the SA2 pics looks better than the 2 PS2 pics
you posted. I'm wondering what you're going to say when
platform-agnostic Sonic Team decides to port SA2 and it ends up in
the same condition as it was on DC, texture-wise.
Edited by: Taito
de GO at: 6/10/01 3:06:24 am
|
nrXic
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Posts: 202
(6/10/01 3:02:04 am)
Reply
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...
I agree Sman, the PS2 doesn't have too many colorful games. They
look grey and drabby like the PSX. Compare VF2 to Tekken 3, and you
can see a difference in colors, maybe it's the developers and
artists, but it's true for many games. Compare Daytona to Ridge
Racer 4.
The same can be said for the Xbox so far, the
colors don't pop out like they do on the Dreamcast. The GC though,
looks more like the Dreamcast and Model2/3 and the colors really pop
out.
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iLINK2
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Posts: 56
(6/10/01 3:02:23 am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Quote:
The only (GLARING, but still, the only) problem I have with the
PS2's image is the 'jagg' problem. It was a problem in the PS2's
1st gen and it's still a problem to this day. That's one
discrepancy on the PS2 where the DC has a clear advantage.
Yep, thats what an
interlaced console will do
But seriously, some way or another, J&D doesnt seem to have a
'jagg' problm at all. Really cant tell yet. . .could this be the
beginning of no jags?
|
MrAngryFace
PC God
Posts: 510
(6/10/01 3:03:31 am)
Reply
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
I just said I bet it will be fun. Who said I was talking to you. Go
ahead and champion your cause, I don't care either way.
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Ned
Flanders God of Men
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(6/10/01 3:05:19
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Calder, if the limitations of the PS2 are'nt what caused the
blurriness or dull coloration on the textures for those games, can
you please show me a PS2 game that suffers from neither ailment?
Even more colorful games like Wipeout Fusion and Klonoa 2 don't have
the sharpness of SA2's textures. You'd think that if the hardware
weren't the problem that ONE game might make an ideal rebuttal to
the SA2 question, but I used 2 games that were cited (FFX and ICO)
and they didn't even cut it..
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Taito
de GO
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
AngryFace: Didn't mean to make you, uh, angry.
|
iLINK2
Registered User
Posts: 57
(6/10/01 3:10:01 am)
Reply
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Quote:
Calder, if the limitations of the PS2 are'nt what caused the
blurriness or dull coloration on the textures for those games, can
you please show me a PS2 game that suffers from neither ailment?
Even more colorful games like Wipeout Fusion and Klonoa 2 don't
have the sharpness of SA2's textures. You'd think that if the
hardware weren't the problem that ONE game might make an ideal
rebuttal to the SA2 question, but I used 2 games that were cited
(FFX and ICO) and they didn't even cut it..
In your opinion, they
dont cut it. In other opinons they do. Dont want to bring it up yet
again but J&D does not suffer from dull coloration nor
blurriness. Nor does FFX and ICO. Dont use poor screen captures as
the ultimate refrence
|
Homo
Pocket
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(6/10/01 3:11:56
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Well maybe I'm half blind but I still haven't been able to notice
"jaggie" problems in the PS2 games I've played and I've rented the
likes of Ridge Racer V among many others..
I'm not
even gonna bother saying anything about the texture capabilities of
the consoles since it's all theoretical. What I will say is what
I've seen first hand. Out of J&D, FFX, and ICO, I thought
J&D had the (noticeably)best and most CRISP textures out of
them. And even when the camera zoomed in close, things did not get
blurry. The game also had a strong draw distance and was quite
colorful... The game was not restrictive like the Crash games, I
actually saw quite a few people getting lost and not knowing where
to proceed(The could continue exploring the land or swim off into
the distance)..
J&D was the closest to Sonic Adventure II's
textures, it still didn't match up completely but it was close.
|
MrAngryFace
PC God
Posts: 511
(6/10/01 3:16:24 am)
Reply
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
OK here's the deal with jaggies. Wanna know why screenshot whores go
on an on about them? Because you can only really notice them IN
SCREENSHOTS.
People who actually play games, save the anal
psycho monkeys, probably don't notice them. I know I don't.
_________________________________________________
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Thompson
Ignorance isn't my excuse -- it's my
accomplice. Edited by: MrAngryFace
at: 6/10/01 3:25:40 am
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Nash
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Posts: 12
(6/10/01 3:16:36 am)
Reply
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Marty, whether you will ever accept it or not (probably not), the
PS2 is a massive pain in the arse. DC was nice, well designed
hardware. I know coders who have vowed never to touch a PS2 EVER
again. And the comparison that is always bought up is the
Saturn.
PS2 has an over-complicated way of doing things where
the end results are usually not worth the pain involved getting
them. The only reason people are bothering is that it's PlayStation,
and that means money.
Time spent fighting the hardware, is
time wasted. I'm from the school of thinking that would rather
explore gameplay concepts and ideas, than spend all the time
worrying about how to squeeze the necessary performance out of the
hardware.
Nash
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Marty
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Nash, nice way of ignoring me proving you wrong....
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Ned
Flanders God of Men
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Posts: 244
(6/10/01 3:19:11
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Quote:
Posted by iLINK2:
"In your
opinion, they dont cut it. In other opinons they do. Dont want to
bring it up yet again but J&D does not suffer from dull
coloration nor blurriness. Nor does FFX and ICO. Dont use poor
screen captures as the ultimate refrence"
Well lets see, I made a
statement and was using pics to back it up. If you are gonna make
such statements, then why don't you show and prove..All of the caps
I used were somewhat blurry (SA2 included) yet you could still
discern that the clarity was better texture-wise. Taitio even
admitted it, and he was on the other side of the fence before I
posted the pics. All were in game shots, and used similar surfaces
as a reference. No its not the "ultimate reference" but it supports
my arguement quite nicely. I'd like to see you post some pics and do
the same..
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Homo
Pocket
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(6/10/01 3:22:02
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
I have a problem with you right now Marty, the problem is, WHY does
it say "Registered User" underneath your name and not something like
"Moderator" or "Administrator" or something?
|
nrXic
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Posts: 208
(6/10/01 3:23:51 am)
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 |
Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Well I see the jaggies and dullish colors, but I used to be an
artist back in the day. I also noticed when the sprites become
actual polygon objects in games like ATV racer and Crazy Taxi.
:P
Anyways, the PS2 has shown that it can get over these
issues, games like Cool Boarders 3, NHL 2001, and many more show
this. But games like ZOE dissappointed me. It just looked like a PSX
game with a higher poly count. It looked like it was at 512X320 or
whatever the "high res" mode on the PSX is. Dissappointed since this
game was hyped more than games like VOOT, which could compare
graphically in many ways.
Rant over.
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Marty
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(6/10/01 3:24:10
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Oh, well when we changed forums, again =), right before E3, things
got a bit hectic cuz of E3 and it never got updated. I just haven't
had time to remind them to change it over. A lot of people didn't
get their status updated right away either. I actually haven't been
around the forum much until this last week. Jim hasn't been around
whenever I'm around either so it's been a lack of communication.
It's no biggie to me. It'll get fixed sooner or later =)
|
iLINK2
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Posts: 58
(6/10/01 3:28:14 am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Quote:
Well lets see, I made a statement and was using pics to back it
up. If you are gonna make such statements, then why don't you show
and prove..All of the caps I used were somewhat blurry (SA2
included) yet you could still discern that the clarity was better
texture-wise. Taitio even admitted it, and he was on the other
side of the fence before I posted the pics. All were in game
shots, and used similar surfaces as a reference. No its not the
"ultimate reference" but it supports my arguement quite nicely.
I'd like to see you post some pics and do the same..
You seem offended, no
need for that. All I meant was blurry pics arent excactly a accurate
way of judging texture quality. Even highrez pics arent accurate. I
posted a video of Ico but that wasnt out to prove any point because
it just isnt accurate either. So it really doesnt "support" your
argument, just starts a new one
Quote:
games like Cool Boarders 3, NHL 2001, and many more show this. But
games like ZOE dissappointed me. It just looked like a PSX game
with a higher poly count. It looked like it was at 512X320 or
whatever the "high res" mode on the PSX is
Hehe, thats exactly what
I thought as well. Couldnt believe it. Not only that, but it was the
most repetetive game I've bought. Multiplayer was decent. . .
Edited by: iLINK2
at: 6/10/01 3:31:00 am
|
Homo
Pocket
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(6/10/01 3:34:25
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
To be fair to all of the above mentioned games, it would be fair to
compare their textures once we have the completed games in hand and
are able to go through every level in the games, pick out the best
looking levels and then compare. Just because one of the levels in
DMC, SA2, FFX, or ICO look nice doesn't mean all of them will be of
the same quality. Some of the levels(Texture-wise) in Sonic
Adventure looked ok while others looked fantastic.. The way I see,
take the absolute BEST looking textures of each game then compare
them. Right now we're only comparing textures we've seen from each
game so far, which isn't very much.
|
Nash
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Posts: 13
(6/10/01 3:34:28 am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Marty, I'm not one for message-board style arguments. I'm only on
here cos I'm back at home, killing time while killing a
hangover.
I have spent the last few years designing the
games, rather than coding them as well. If my coder friends were
here they'd love to go into the flaws of the PS2, and in great
detail. But they are not.
Any hardware where the pain
practically outweighs the gain is bad for games in general. It
stifles creativity, makes people less willing to take risks. That's
my problem with PS2.
And as a games journalist I thought
you'd be far more concerned with seeing fresh, original games, than
wasting all this energy defending what is just a piece of
hardware.
Nash
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Ned
Flanders God of Men
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
So, nothing is accurate and nothing can be compared. You can have
them side by side on 2 tv's but because the TV's are slightly
different then the comparison isn't valid etc etc. Pics are the most
functional means of comparison we have here at the forum, with vids
being as close to ideal. I guess game websites shouldn't even post
media for games since they are such a gross misrepresentation of
what the actual games look like..
..
Like I said I've seen FFX and SA2 in person and the
texture difference is clear, if not overwhelming. But then again, I
could've been sleepy or had blurred vision looking at FFX and maybe
just put in some Visine when playing SA2 , so its probably an
innacurate comparison
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iLINK2
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Posts: 59
(6/10/01 3:39:40 am)
Reply
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Good point Pocket. I've played SA2 and seen FFX first hand.
Admitingly I only saw small footage of Ico on an E3 vhs tape. Havent
seen J&D in person either, so in this thread, I'm only going by
what editors have said with their hands on impressions and
wonderfully clear pics and vids .
They're all impressive enough. Its funny though that FFX has a much
more complex engine then SA2 yet matches it in textures Well, I'm
getting a GC first and foremost so this texture debate wont matter
for I.
Edited by: iLINK2
at: 6/10/01 3:42:34 am
|
Marty
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(6/10/01 3:40:07
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Nash: You were the one trying to tell me what the DC could do, when
you were wrong, and what the PS2 couldn't do, wrong again. Plus you
had no idea what texture streaming was and then on top of it you
accused me of recycling what I read in a press release. Look, I
never said the PS2 was perfect hardware, but I'm dead on when it
comes to what the system is capable of with textures. The PS2 is
fully capable of handling Sonic Adventure 2. There is nothing about
the memory that restricts it from being possible. That is the topic,
and I have addressed it as such. Maybe next time you shouldn't jump
into a technical discussion without understanding the fundamentals.
|
Nash
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Posts: 14
(6/10/01 3:47:17 am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Grrr, I was going from off the top of my head from discussions we'd
had amongst ourselves in the past. I can guarantee that my mate's
who've actually coded on the machines know a bit more about it, and
each machine's potential, than you.
But I should have
remembered exactly how pedantic you like to be about things
...
Nash
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Marty
Chinn
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Posts: 53
(6/10/01 3:52:05
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Can't you just admit you're wrong and bow out? I'm not looking for a
huge technical discussion on how to access certain registries of the
cpu, I'm talking about a fundamental concept of the way the system
was made. It was made with the intention of streaming textures from
main ram to video ram, where as the dc was made to store textures in
vram. This is such a basic concept of each system. No need to side
step the issue...
|
Napola
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Posts: 118
(6/10/01 3:52:29 am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Marty I thought the DC had excellent texture compression. Meaning
that the 8meg you constantly remind us of per scene, is really
32megs. Also your statement about the GC and PS2 being better than
the DC in 2D isn't really true since 2D developers like traditional
architectures like the DC rather than radical designs like the PS2
and NGC.
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Marty
Chinn
Registered
User
Posts: 54
(6/10/01 3:57:32
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Napola: It does have texture compression but you can compress the
textures on the GC and PS2 as well, so it still ends up being in
similar situations. Also whether or not the developers prefer the
architecture is irrelevent to the simple fact that both systems are
capable of handling 2D better than the DC. The simple point is that
both systems are capable of having higher quality and more frames of
animation than the DC. Again a memory issue since all frames of
animation need to be stored in the DC's vram while they can be
stored in main ram on the ps2 and gc. Fafalada, and a few other
developers in here will vouch for that.
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iLINK2
Registered User
Posts: 60
(6/10/01 3:59:54 am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Well, with the PS2's IPU, you have at least 600mb of animation
storage in the 32mb main RAM right there.
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Nash
Registered User
Posts: 15
(6/10/01 4:02:16 am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
And my point is streaming from anywhere (and I did talk about ram as
well as DVD, DVD was the spin Sony put on streaming) is a pain in
the arse to deal with, and deal with efficiently. And ease of
development has a VERY big effect on what you will see at the end of
the day. Which is why most developers are sticking to conventional
methods.
DC does have excellent texture compression, and can
pull in those textures from anywhere in it's memory (which I'd have
to speak to someone to clarify, but you can do some nice trick with
it). PS2 does suffer from a lack of memory, both vram and
conventional.
And no I will not 'bow out' of this discussion,
as you so patronisingly put it. Your rose-coloured view of PS2
development is a bit removed from reality.
Nash
(who is
now going for some much needed sleep!)
Edited by: Nash
at: 6/10/01 4:05:59 am
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Sman
Xtreme
Registered
User
Posts: 99
(6/10/01 4:02:50
am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
You're telling me all the cells of animation from MvsC2 and SF3 are
stored in a measly 8 megs of RAM? I'm impressed.
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iLINK2
Registered User
Posts: 61
(6/10/01 4:04:19 am)
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Re: Can PS2
Handle Sonic Adventure 2?
Quote:
PS2 does suffer from a lack of memory, both vram and conventional.
All consoles suffer from
a lack of memory
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